Bible course resurfaces for BOE

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Monday, April 6. 2009

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An impassioned plea by one Barrow County Board of Education member has brought a proposed Bible literature class back into the spotlight.

Board member Larry Ballard asked that the item be placed on Tuesday’s work session agenda and then proceeded to make a passionate plea for the board to approve the class for the system’s two high schools.

The BOE agreed to take a non-binding vote at the April BOE meeting to see how it stands on supporting the class.

“Our nation was founded on the Bible,” Ballard said. “We are fighting the notion of offering it. That’s crazy to me. This is about hometown values. I ran on this issue. I’m a firm believer in God’s word. I think it’s wrong for us not to put this out there as an elective. We are dragging our feet on this. If I were fearful of what would happen, I wouldn’t do it.”

Board member Lyn Stevens, who has expressed the most opposition to the course, and who stated again Tuesday she would vote against it, said the course opens the school system to possible lawsuits.

Ballard, in turn, said he was not concerned about those “representing the ACLU or the First Amendment.”

Ballard said the school board should be the one to make a decision on the matter and not school principals.

“We don’t need to put it on the principals,” he said. “We need to decide as a board. We exhausted every avenue as a board on this. All indications was yes, yes, yes.”

Board chairman Bill Bramlett said the proper procedure is to have the principals make a recommendation to the board.

“If we don’t, we open ourselves for someone to say we are pushing it as a board,” Bramlett said.

Ballard said the course has been approved by the state legislature, but that did not impress fellow board member Stevens.

“All it does is say we are pushing ‘feel good’ legislation,” Stevens said. “There is no protection for the school system being sued.”

Bramlett also said the staffing also appears to be questionable and it could take another year to get it in place, assuming the course is approved.

Ballard said several times that interest has already been shown by students at the high schools in the course as well as teachers being willing to teach it.

Apalachee High School principal David McGee, who was at Tuesday’s work session, said the survey was done in the fall of 2006.

McGee said the board should remember that eighth graders and seniors took the survey at the time and that could have easily affected the outcome.

“Eighth graders will say ‘yes’ to anything and seniors won’t be there to take it,” McGee said. “Some teachers at both schools are also no longer here. We have a teacher at our school who would do a good job with it, but is nervous because her classroom would be an open book.”

The AHS principal said he couldn’t speak for Winder-Barrow High School principal Al Darby, but he did note that neither were principals at their respective high schools when the previous surveys were done.

“It’s not that we are scared to put it in place, but can we do it?” McGee said. “We aren’t getting extra teachers and have been told not to ask. I have been told to take what I have and do the best I can with it.”

Ballard said the course is offered in 52 schools and there has not been a lawsuit yet.

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#1 MKR on 04/06/09 at 04:42 PM [Reply]

I'm fine with a general world culture class that includes coverage of the major belief systems. With how rapidly the world is shrinking, kids need to know how to coexist with the rest of the world.

This class won't do that. This class will teach them what they can already get from a bookstore or from their parents. What do they do if they want to find out more about the beliefs of their Muslim, Jewish, or Buddhist neighbor? They might be able to find something online, but without the help of a quality curriculum, it would be hard for them to distinguish the good content from the bad.

#2 Clarence Darrow on 04/06/09 at 08:33 PM [Reply]

Bible thumpers and their 10 commandment sign-mess cost Barrow county $100,000 and a major butt-kicking in federal court. However, these myrmidons never cease in their blind & irritating devotion to fairy tales as ancient as they are silly. They are compelled to forcibly foist them off on others (especially children) in order to perpetuate the nonsense. The constitution, the legality of abortion, booze, and gambling make no impression upon their minds. It would take a swinging shovel to do that.

#2.1 Anonymous on 04/07/09 at 04:27 PM [Reply]

I will pray for you and your negativity

#2.2 Anonymous on 04/07/09 at 06:21 PM [Reply]

let me clarify your accusation. The county had to pay the complainitive (who didnt even live here)a large sum because he felt the commandment violated his rights for a fair trial. It was hanging in the hall way (were it has hung since the court house opened)not in the court room. As for going to battle to keep it there, that was funded threw private donations from people who believe in the commandment not threw the county who doesnt care

#2.3 Scott Denard on 04/07/09 at 10:23 PM [Reply]

Funny thing I read about fairy tales, but an appropriate course in the bible is very needed. There are several facts science will not tell you about the fairy tale of evolution. Also some contradictory facts in the science of geology. The bible is inerrent in all things man cannot prove 1 error in it. A superior history book on the nation of Israel and an excellant moral guide for anyone reading it. As for Christ, he is widely accepted as having existed and being a great teacher, while only the wise accept His being the Son of God, at least children deserve the chance to have the knowledge to chose. This is what the anti-Christians fight is the educational right of children to have knowledge to make a choice.

#2.3.1 MKR on 04/08/09 at 05:01 PM [Reply]

Science is a collection of processes and a body of knowledge built by those processes. The processes of science have identified a complex group of patterns collectively known as evolution.

Trying to approach a product of science (evolution in this case) from a theological perspective would be as productive as someone trying to approach a theological idea with the processes of science. The two are incompatible, and there's no getting around that.

#3 John Doe on 04/07/09 at 12:42 AM [Reply]

Would the idiot who is pushing this nonsense please read a little history regarding the founding of this nation? Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence, was, to put it mildly, not a religious man. Try reading his tombstone. and, contrary to bible-thumpers, our system of jurisprudence was not based on the 10 commandments. Try reading all ten of them. Some of are darn nice (honor thy father and thy mother), but they aren't "laws." if people want to leanr about the bible, let them do it church; do it at home -- but not in the PUBLIC schools.

#3.1 Scott Denard on 04/08/09 at 08:20 AM [Reply]

Actually I just took a history course in college and while he was not terribly religious it was not til later life he made any statement as to his objection to Christianity, He did believe in a God. As far as the ten commandments in the court house. There are laws based on all the commandments with exception of just one. Thou shalt not have any Gods befoe me. Try removing any law related to the others and see what you have left. If your such a fool to believe the law was not strongly influenced by the Bible in the days when religious individuals controlled the country you are quite foolish.

#3.1.1 Hay Zoose on 04/08/09 at 08:45 AM [Reply]

#

Only 68 of 200 Anglican priests polled could name all Ten Commandments, but half said they believed in space aliens."

Concerning the Ten Commandments in courthouses and legislatures: You cannot post "Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery," and "Thou Shall Not Lie" in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians...It creates a hostile work environment.

And, BTW, if you think only one of the Top 10 is not reflected in the O.C.G.A., then you are a cretin.

#3.1.1.1 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 09:32 AM [Reply]

Priest are a catholic religion. A Pastor belongs to the religion of the origional 10 commandments ex:israelites, baptist,jews,methodist. So its not suprising that priest do not know the origional 10 commandments. Dont get it twisted! Why did Catholics have...the ten Commandments changed to suit their rules?

#3.1.2 MKR on 04/08/09 at 12:48 PM [Reply]

Have you checked the laws of religions that predate Christianity and the bible to see if they had similar laws?

I considered saving you the trouble of checking, but I would rather you learn how to independently verify things. It's a vital life skill. :)

#3.1.2.1 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 01:23 PM [Reply]

why would I want to go that far back? where talking about when they were changed, not before they existed.

#3.1.2.1.1 MKR on 04/08/09 at 04:30 PM [Reply]

You're claiming that some subset of the nation's laws have a basis in the bible.

Murder has always been bad. The first caveman to kill another probably got cast out or killed for it.

Last I checked there's no federal law against adultery.

Theft, like murder, has always caused hardship and a desire for justice in someone.

Bearing false witness, like stealing and murder, are not going to go over well with anyone and were pretty assholish things to do before the ten commandments were etched into stone.

Nothing else I see in this list on Wikipedia has any analogue in federal law as far as I'm aware. Can you point to a specific example?

#3.1.2.1.1.1 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 09:31 PM [Reply]

Talking about moral law not actual goverment laws. The 10 comandments that were hung in the court houses were for a moral guide to live by not to be prosecuted by. You can reasearch catholic commandments and it will pull up lots of websights to research there belief and commandments and how they changed.

#3.1.2.1.1.1.1 MKR on 04/08/09 at 09:51 PM [Reply]

Then be clearer. What was said in 3 is talking about actual laws, not moral guidelines. Without a change of subject, the topic of your subthread inherits that of the parent thread.

And if we want to have a good moral guide posted in the courthouse, something secular can do the job just as well, and not cause a bunch of controversy.

#3.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 Anonymous on 04/09/09 at 10:31 AM [Reply]

It was for hay zoose comment and you butted in

#3.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 MKR on 04/09/09 at 03:38 PM [Reply]

There's no butting in on a public forum.

#3.2 Anonymous on 04/10/09 at 01:44 PM [Reply]

Nice.... and you wonder why there are drugs and shootings and violence in our schools? I guarantee that in one time in your life you have called upon our so God and a desperate time! You hypocrite!

#3.2.1 MKR on 04/10/09 at 02:22 PM [Reply]

If this jumble of words is the result of an education in Barrow County's schools, we need to reorder our educational priorities a bit.

What are you saying, and who is it supposed to be in response to?

#4 Barrow Teacher on 04/07/09 at 06:34 AM [Reply]

No doubt that the person at AHS who would be willing to teach this would be nervous since she would be in a fishbowl environment all the time. Churches do a fine job of teaching this material and it should be the job of the family and church to teach this material. I am a Christian, but it is my belief that it does not need to be offered at school. College courses offer this material and the depth to which this course would be taught does not exceed what is taught at home and in churches already. BCS has enough problems, like how ridiculously far behind we are with technology. Clarke, Jackson and Gwinnett are killing us with technology and we are teaching state-mandated curriculum without laptops, projectors, white boards, etc. It is sad and embarrassing when we talk to colleagues outside of our county. Gifted children are ignored for the sake of the status quo and the block schedules of the high schools drastically limit what a student can take. Teachers are taking on more and more roles in order to be parents to kids instead of teachers. Parents of Barrow County need to do their jobs as parents if the citizens of Barrow County want to see some significant change. Getting involved in the life of their kids is necessary and vital. You don't need to be their best friends, you need to be their parents.
There are bigger fish to fry than a religion class. I don't care if 50+ schools offer it already- maybe their communities can handle it and so can their school systems. Ours is still struggling with basic needs and our frozen school budgets aren't helping much either. How many of you know that twice this year we have been told that we can't spend any of our allotments and now we are under a "hard freeze" with what is left? That means nothing can be ordered (books, supplies, materials) in order to teach lessons. We aren't sitting on tons of resources as it is (you know, let's build and renovate schools but not supply basic needs in the new buildings.....thanks BCS!) and now we can't spend what little money we have left. I wonder if the Board Office is under a freeze as well. Maybe it is....we aren't told much, but they do have the technology we do not have at our schools! It's sad and an outrage. No wonder BCS teachers head to Gwinnett.

#4.1 Anonymous on 04/07/09 at 07:50 AM [Reply]

I agree completely with Barrow
Teacher - #4 above. Barrow County Schools need this like they need a hole in the head. Too many of our young people are dropping out, failing to learn to read or write, and are prepared only to flip burgers and sweep floors after they complete their "award winning" education in Barrow County. There are better things for the board of education to be worried about - things like class size, the lack of classrooms (but not athletic facilities, thank god!) and hiring a new superintendent who is more interested in the children than he is in making headlines and winner faux awards.

#5 DuWayne R. Anderson on 04/07/09 at 06:45 AM [Reply]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I applaud Mr.Ballard's efforts in this matter. No one is being forced to take this course, so there is no infringement of personal rights on any level. Elective courses are just that elective. You can take it or leave it as you or the parents of any student see fit.

Using the argument that the school system might be open to an ACLU lawsuit, for offering an elective course, is ridiculous left-wing hysteria. If the school system wants to expand the elective courses for other religions in order not to appear biased towards the Bible, then that is fine with me. As with the bible, the only students that will sign up for it, are the ones who are actually interested in the course. That interest level is up to each student. The BOE should not try to legislate the right or wrong of their personal interest to want to take any religious course on the basis of their personal political views.

As in the past, I continue to urge the BOE to offer the course to any student who has an interest, and a desire to do it, and check their personal politics and egos at the door, when it comes time to vote.

Finally, this tired old tactic of name calling and Bible bashing serves no constructive purpose in this discussion. Those of you who do not believe in the Bible or it's teachings, are certainly entitled to your personal opinion. However, depicting those who disagree with your views as some kind of fanatics, is both ill-advised, and inappropriate.
I support Mr. Ballard in his efforts, and thank him for having the courage to stand for students rights in elective course education.
DuWayne R. Anderson
Winder, GA

#5.1 MKR on 04/07/09 at 07:08 AM [Reply]

Who's bible bashing and calling names?

#5.2 anonymous on 04/07/09 at 09:43 AM [Reply]

DuWayne said -"The BOE should not try to legislate the right or wrong of their personal interest to want to take any religious course on the basis of their personal political views."

Larry said - “Our nation was founded on the Bible,” Ballard said. “We are fighting the notion of offering it. That’s crazy to me. This is about hometown values. I ran on this issue. I’m a firm believer in God’s word. I think it’s wrong for us not to put this out there as an elective. We are dragging our feet on this. If I were fearful of what would happen, I wouldn’t do it.”

That said ---it appears Mr. Ballard has a personal and political view at stake here. Whatever happened to parents and churches? Guess we are back to the approach of dumping the kids at the school and teach them everything they need. Parents and Church Leaders need to step up and assume this responsibility.

With all the cost issues facing the BOE let's ensure we have the basic required courses covered before we go off and vote on a political campaign promise.

#6 marinetorch on 04/07/09 at 12:12 PM [Reply]

Somehow it gets turned into a "religious" discussion" when the course has been has been referred to as "Bible Literature". Pro or con maybe everyone ranting should take a few courses in comprehension.....Literature is not religion.....In high school many years ago....we were offered as electives for our English credits, a number of literature courses...science lit, fantasy lit and Bible lit......In the Bible lit class...there were no religious teachings, it was all about the writing and meanings of phrases that a lot of people use every day...such as "doubting Thomas" or "patience of Job". Whether you believe in God or not...the Bible is a very interesting work of literature...I'm sure there are more wasteful classes at any given school.....Find something else to whine about....from both sides....Since it is "elective"...no one is getting the Bible shoved down their throats religiously or otherwise..Find another cause to fight...

#6.1 anonymous on 04/07/09 at 01:21 PM [Reply]

Read Mr. Ballard's quotes and you don't get the idea this is about literature. Of course this is my interpretation with my limited comprehension skills.

Mr. Ballard - “Our nation was founded on the Bible,” Ballard said. “We are fighting the notion of offering it. That’s crazy to me. This is about hometown values. I ran on this issue. I’m a firm believer in God’s word. I think it’s wrong for us not to put this out there as an elective. We are dragging our feet on this. If I were fearful of what would happen, I wouldn’t do it.”

#6.1.1 marinetorch on 04/08/09 at 09:52 AM [Reply]

The fact is still "Literature" not a religious course....No matter what Mr Ballard's pleas are...the course is about literature...There is rhetoric on both sides that come from personal passionate feelings.....but the fact remains...it's a Litereature course....That's where the comprehension problem lies...But everybody wants to put their pro or con feelings about religion being taught in schools and get huffy when the fight is not about religion.....LITERATURE!!!!!!

#6.1.1.1 anonymous on 04/08/09 at 12:44 PM [Reply]

Mr. Ballard's comments does not lend me to believe this is about literature and he is not likely to be satisfied with only a literary approach. Guess we'll see that be proven true or false when he votes on course material and books.

#7 DuWayne R. Anderson on 04/07/09 at 02:21 PM [Reply]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Many folks simply don't believe in God in any form or fashion. That is a fact. While I disagree 100% with those views I have described, I defend their right to have and hold to that opinion or belief. Each individual has to make up their own mind about whether there is a God or not.
Having said that,is it right for a parent to forbid their child to have an interest in exploring the foundations of various religious beliefs,simply because they don't feel it is right? Do we stifle a student's natural curiosity about religion, simply because we do or don't believe in any religion? Many parents would say "YES". Let me be very clear. I am NOT one of those parents,nor do I subscribe to that type of parental mentality.

Many times we as parents, feel we have the right to use "parental generation programming" to direct and in some cases, undermine the natural learning interests of our kids, so we can sleep better at night. Again, I disagree 100%.

There is nothing wrong with the BOE offering an ELECTIVE learning opportunity in the Bible. Your child will not be forced to take the course. Your child will not be "brainwashed" by mythical fanatics. Actually, like it or not, your child, not you, will decide if the information in the Bible makes sense to him or her, as far as any spiritual context is concerned. I believe this fact alone scares the barbecue sauce out of most parents.

Again, I hope the BOE will allow this course to be offered as an elective, which guarantees a student's natural curiosity the opportunity to find it's own way without undue interference from political or parental personal agendas.

Sincerely,
DuWayne R. Anderson
Winder,GA

#8 Barrow taxpayer on 04/07/09 at 03:14 PM [Reply]

Please Mrs. Stevens do everything in your power to prevent from "class" from going in. The Barrow County taxpayers can't afford another lawsuit.

Mr. Ballard, get a life. Church is on Sunday.

#8.1 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 07:45 PM [Reply]

It appears all you are concerned about is a lawsuit, not what is happening to our children?
It you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything. That is what our young generation seems to be doing.
From what I have heard, she does not make decisions based on what is right. She tells parents that it is "none of their business" what happens at the school, unless your child is directly involved. This is not the attitude that any board member should have.
I am glad that we have a board member who believes in God and stands for what he believes in. Our children are our tomorrow, and she should lead them in the right direction.
Doesn't it tell you anything, that we have to have Police Officers in our schools today?
That doesn't seem to be solving the problem, what is wrong with offering God?

#9 Anonymous on 04/07/09 at 05:33 PM [Reply]

Would it make the concern citizens of Barrow County sleep easier if the elective was offered as a none accredited course? Then there would be no lawsuites, because it would be up to the student to take a semester of study without credit.
Problem solved

#10 anonymous on 04/08/09 at 06:16 AM [Reply]

Congratulations Barrow BOE. I'm sure the Atlanta News stations will cover this story. What spin do you think they will offer in their coverage? My guess is we will be painted as "less than progressive" and not a place where a major employer is interested in locating.

#10.1 DuWayne R. Anderson on 04/08/09 at 06:45 AM [Reply]

While your point offers an interesting self-serving spin, I must tell you, that the major employers you speak of, don't decide whether to move to Barrow County because of the day to day elective curriculum the BOE offers. They come here to gain an advantage against their competition, make profit dollars for their investors and themselves, and in many cases to give back to the local communities, in which they reside.(i.e. Target)

As to how the Atlanta media will react to the BOE looking into an elective Bible Course being offered in public schools,they will treat it with the back page community news mentality they always have. This is not the same as displaying the Ten Commandments in the breezeway of the courthouse. Your comment that Barrow County will be perceived as "not progressive" is a little suspect,and is an attempt to simply bolster your own personal views, by offering a possible scenario for others to consider. Please stick to the facts, and leave the endless possible scenarios to the "Fantasy Island attorneys".
Sincerely,
DuWayne R. Anderson
Winder, GA

#11 kathy on 04/08/09 at 08:04 AM [Reply]

I'm thinking, based on Anonymous #9's comments (and Georgia's educational ranking), that Barrow County needs to focus on teaching the basics, such as grammar, math and spelling.

As for the natural curiosity of a child, there are myriad ways for children to learn. School is not the only place for learning. It IS the place for learning particular, important, basic skills from which all other knowledge can flow. Until we are able to teach our children to read and write, we don't need to teach them to philosophize. They can do that later! We don't need to change a state funded learning facility's curriculum on the chance that there is a child somewhere who isn't being allowed to fully explore his/her curiosity.

Young adulthood is soon enough for exploring philosophical issues, and until that time, children should be exposed to what their parents want them to be exposed to, and they have the right to a proper, basic education.

Why can't we just let that be?

#11.1 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 09:02 AM [Reply]

The course would be offered as an "elective" the same as PE or Cooking or Art class. It has nothing to do with teaching children grammer. This would be offered to high school students not elementry or middle schools. It would be no diffrent than offering a spanish speaking course to children of parents in Barrow County that unfortunately think they should go back to there on country. I also encourage other culture courses, there are a lot of students that are curious about the history of the bible and its teacher, so students are the ones that want this course I say give it to them. Its not to encourge them to go to church or change the religion that there parents have sewed into there heads. It is simply a history that will not be going anywhere!

#11.2 Anonymous on 04/08/09 at 09:51 AM [Reply]

to kathy "School is not the only place for learning. It IS the place for learning particular, important, basic skills from which all other knowledge can flow".
There for my question is What about morals and how a child should honor thy mother and father? There definitely not getting this from home! Dont be afraid that it might teach a child to be loving and the power of forgivness or doing good unto others.

#12 kathy on 04/08/09 at 12:40 PM [Reply]

Anonymous 11.2: I'm sorry, but that comes from Mom & Dad themselves, and/or attendance at a church. People have the right to raise their children with their own beliefs and morals so long as it's not illegal and/or abusive to the children.

There is no reason for MY child to be taught what YOU believe is morally right and wrong. That is my job and my privilege. I realize that a lot of parents neglect their children in this area, but the answer to that is NOT to just rely on the schools to do everything. Read some other blogs in the past, teachers feel like babysitters already, and they claim to be underpaid ones at that! I don't know how we resolve the neglect issue, but throwing it over to schools will not solve anything, it just makes the situation worse.

Read Barrow Teacher's comments above to get the real story and what is important here.

#13 Anon on 04/08/09 at 05:51 PM [Reply]

So everybody is fussing about an optional class? How about we fuss about FCA. That is the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. You know aboiut them, right?
Wait, hold on.....You mean there is an organization that a student can choose to be a part of that teaches religion and there haven't been any lawsuits? Oh my gosh!!!
Is there really a problem with allowing a student to take a class of their choice? If you don't want your child to take the class, don't let them, but allow others the option. I don't like Chinese food, but I am not leading a movement to have them banned from Barrow County.
Personally, I wish they would teach a class about the United States being a Republic, not a Democracy!!

#13.1 MKR on 04/08/09 at 06:47 PM [Reply]

FCA isn't funded by taxpayer money, is it?

#13.1.1 anon on 04/08/09 at 09:26 PM [Reply]

It's done on school grounds, in a taxpayer funded building. Do they ever take field trips? If so, what do you think they travel in?
My point is, I don't care if they offer a class in "how to open and close a door correctly". If enough students show an interest to learn any subject, then let them learn. Society has enough uneducated people in it.

#13.1.1.1 MKR on 04/08/09 at 09:53 PM [Reply]

I don't know. I glanced at their webpage and it looked like an independent organization. Wouldn't they have their own buses if they did field trips?

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